Thursday, November 02, 2006

Are there Persians in Iran?

Azeri Turks Views:
The name Persia is a misunderstanding by the Western historians. Iran was always called "Iranzamin" or the "Land of Iran" and people in Iran are called "Iranians" and not Persians. Iranian and Persian are the same thing. There are no Persians in Iran. Persian is only a language. There are no such people in Iran. Persians are a mythical people. All the people in Iran are "Iranians". We are an "Iranian" nation.

And more recently Azeris have started to promoted this line:

  • Persian and Iranian are the same thing. So Kurds are also Persians.
  • Iran is not a tribal nation anymore. We are a beautiful "(Azeri Turk?) Iranian Nation".
  • We are an "Iranian Race". This is promoted officially by Sumka on their website. "Sumka" is an "Azeri Turk Nazi organization" which is setup by the regime in Tehran. Sumka is openly Nazist in their ideology.

The Persian View:
Iranian and Persian are not the same thing. Yes. Iran has been called Iran Zamin or the Land of Iran . But people of Iran-Zamin were not called "Iranians". They were called Sogdians,Parthians, Baktrians,Khorasanis, Persians, Medes etc. Also different parts of Iran were called Pars,Parthia,Sogdia,Bactria,Khorasan, Media etc.

Persian history states that Persians built the Persian Empire. Parthians defeated the Greek Army of Alexander after Alexander's death in Babylon and saved Persia from Greek invaders. Alexander the Great could not defeat the Bactrians. Alexander the Great married a Persian Princess from Sogdia, Roxana. There was a Persian Empire and a Parthian Empire. But there was never any "Iranian Empire" in Persian history as Azeri Turks claim in their imaginary history.

Persian history never states that "Iranians" did this or that as Azeri Turks claim.

There were no "Iranians" acting in history. By Iranians Azeris Turks mean somebody who is a mix of Turk, Persian, Mongol and Arab. That is somebody without any ethnic identity. These imaginary "Iranians" created the history of Iran. For the last 1000 years "Imaginary Iranians" were ruling Iran.

Azeri Turks use a few phrases in Shahnameh to re-write the whole history of the region and invent some imaginary Iranians who were actors in this history. This is a way to include themselves in the history of ancient Persia. The reality is Iranzamin was not used as the name of the country, but it was called Khorasan for 100's of years and the focus of Khorasan was not even Iran proper but a region between eastern Iran, Afghanistan and Central Asia. This region was the focus of the common history of Iran and Afghanistan.

Real history of Iran

The History of Iran

  • Proto-Elamite civilization (3200–2700 BCE)
  • Jiroft civilization (3000–5th c. BCE)
  • Elamite dynasties (2700–539 BCE)
  • Kingdom of Mannai (10th–7th c. BCE)
  • Median Empire (728–550 BCE)
  • Achaemenid Empire (648–330 BCE)
  • Seleucid Empire (330–150 BCE)
  • Parthian Empire (250 BCE– 226 CE)
  • Sassanid Dynasty (226–650)
  • Islamic conquest (637–651)
  • Tahirid dynasty (821–873)
  • Alavid dynasty (864–928)
  • Saffarid dynasty (861–1003)
  • Samanid dynasty (875–999)
  • Ziyarid dynasty (928–1043)
  • Buwayhid dynasty (934–1055)
  • Ghaznavid Empire (963–1187)
  • Ghori dynasty (1149–1212)
  • Seljukid Empire (1037–1194)
  • Khwarezmid dynasty (1077–1231)
  • Ilkhanate (1256–1353)
  • Muzaffarid dynasty (1314–1393)
  • Chupanid dyansty (1337–1357)
  • Jalayerid dynasty (1339–1432)
  • Timurid Empire (1370–1506)
  • Qara Qoyunlu Turcomans (1407–1468)
  • Aq Qoyunlu Turcomans (1378–1508)
  • Safavid Empire (1501–1722/1736)
  • Hotaki Ghilzai dynasty (1722–1729)
  • Afsharid dynasty (1736–1802)
  • Zand dynasty (1750–1794)
  • Qajar dynasty (1781–1925)
  • Pahlavi dynasty (1925–1979)
  • Islamic Revolution (1979)
  • Provisional Government (1979–1980)
  • Islamic Republic of Iran (1980–Present)

  • There are no "imaginary Iranians" in Iran's history.

    Who is Iranian?

    Iranian is a modern concept since 18 century. The nationals of Iran are called Iranian regardless of their ethnic background. The term Iranian does not have any historical, ethnic or racial significance.
    • Iranian is a meaningless term as it is used by Azeri Turks.Azeri Turks use "Iranian" in a racial, ethnic and cultural meaning.
    • By "Iranian" Azeri Turks mean somebody who is half turk, half persian, half arab, half mongol. That is an "Iranian" has no ethnic identity. Everybody in Iran is supposed to be a member of "Iranian race". This is an smart way for Azeri Turks to mix up and confuse ethnic identities and claim to be the natives of Iran and the inheritors of Persian civilization.
    • The term "Iranian" confuses the issues and assigns imaginary properties to Azeri Turks such as racial and ethnic meanings. Azeri Turks imagine because they are the nationals of Iran, Azeri Turks have Persian or Kurdish culture of Iran. Kurds have lived in Turkey for 1000 of years and they are still kurds. Same with Azeri turks. Azeri Turks have Azeri Turk culture and not Persian or Kurdish culture.
    • Azeri Turks use "Iranian" as if it was equal to a German. Azeri Turks imply that "Iranian" means "Iranian Race". There is no "Iranian Race" in Iran. Iran is a multi-ethnic society.
    • The Following quote shows that contrary to Azeri Turk claims that they have Iranian culture, their ethnic identity is not an Iranian identity but an azeri turk identity. Also Azeri Turks state clearly that they control Iran: A new book by Brenda Shaffer, Harvard University’s Director of Caspian Studies, has reportedly captivated the attention of "regime change" advocates in Washington. In her book, "Borders and Brethren: Iran and the Challenge of Azerbaijani Identity," Shaffer challenges the widely held view in contemporary Iranian scholarship that a broad Iranian identity supersedes ethnic identities.
    Replacing the term Persian with "Iranian" Azeri Turks are trying to include themselves in some imaginary history of Iran when Azeri Turks did not even live in Iran. Azeri Turks presence in Iran is mainly from 15 century A.D. The purpose of all this is to prove that there was no Persian Empire and it was an "Iranian Empire". And Azeri Turks are "Iranians" and are inheritors of history and traditions of "Iranian Empire" as Azeri Turk Shirin Ebadi claims.

    The Azeri Turk Shirin Ebadi the Nobel Peace Prize winner when receiving the Nobel Prize in Oslo, Norway claimed :

    "I am an Iranian and a descedant of Cyrus the Great Iranian Empire.!!!!!"

    Azeri Turk Cultural Utopia:

    WE ARE ALL IRANI... I dance kordi and turki and understand a bit of it... but i was born in tehran (not that there is anything special about that... i wish i was born in different province)... none of my family is from shahrestan... why do you wanna divide... no offense but its ppl like you who wanna break up iran apart...

    kords, baluch, bakhtiari etc. have different CUSTOMS... but our culture is the same... cutoms and culture are too different things... i love to learn about your custom... so teach me instead of keep saying that your are different... let me understand you... dont tell me i dont tell me you are diffent so i dont understand you...

    and the ethnic tension... there should be none... everybody is equally abused under the current regim...

    iran is no different than usa... so why do we keeping saying tork.... im kord... im different... we are all IRANI..

    Natives of Iran Views on "Iranians":

    you know nothing about me, do you even know what you're talking about? When did I want to seperate Iran? Different customs make different cultures. Iran is multi ethnic and multi cultural, you can never put them all into a blender and achieve cultural utopia, that is a fact.

    The best thing that can be done is to educate people about others; teaching them mutual respect, of course official language should be Persian.

    The US is a mess, can you imagine if the economy turned third world? The country would seperate in an instant along racial lines.

    Iranian Nationalism as a Modern Creation

    Did people call themselves "Iranian" and were they "Iranian" Nationalist in ancient times? Is the current regime "Iranian Nationalism" based on Persian traditions or Azeri turk Saffavids policies?

    The main conflict in the regime is not the conflict between Moderate Islamist and the "Radical" Islamist. There are many Islamic countries around Iran and none look like Iran. Religion is completely irrelavant in Iran. The main conflict is between Pan-Turk Azeris and the Natives of Iran.

    The current Azeri regime in Tehran is a copy of Saffavids Azeri Turk regime in 16 century. It follows all its policies, from "Iranian Racial Nationalism" to use of force and mass murder. "Iranian Racial nationalism" is very similar to German Nazism and that is what Mr. Ahmadinejad is pursuing. The only difference within the Pan-Turk Azeris is with those who claim they are "secular" Pan-Turks. They agree on objectives but they want to carry their "Iranian Racial nationalism" with "democratic and Pluralistic" methods.

    Contrary to claims by Azeris, the traditions of Persian Empire was not based on "Ethnic and Racial Iranian Nationalism" but on cultural bonds and values of very diverse nations which were included in the Persian Empire. The ideology and traditions of Russian Empire was based on the Persian Empire. What Azeris recommend is the Azeri Turk Saffavids regime from 16 century which is similar to Nazi Germany than to the Persian traditions.

    This is exactly the reason that Azeris manufacture lies about the origin of Azeris as "Iranian Aryans" and they are "mixed with Persians, Kurds" and anybody else they can find. They borrow this ideology and terminology from Jewish Liberal "Nazist" associated with the democratic party in USA.

    The following article claims that "Iranian Nationalism" is an ancient ideology and recommends suppression of ethnic groups in Iran under the cover of fighting tribalism and "separatism". Azeri Turk authors are followers of Azeri Saffavids aims of "Iranian Nationalis" but claims this could be done in a "pluralistic and democratic way".

    Contrary to its claims it recommends a strong state modelled on Saffavid Azeri Turks model from 16 century and wants to have ethnic cleansing of tribes and creation of an "Iranian nation" which is actually an "Azeri Turk Iranian Nation." That is to destroy all ethnic groups in Iran and reduce all "Iranians" to an "Azeri Turk" by destroying the separate provinces representing different ethnic groups such as Persians, Kurds etc.

    Azeri Views on Iranian Nationalism

    Iranians and Iran have remained a nation and a country in much of the last 2,500 years. The Euro-centric belief argues that: (1) “nation” is a European construct; (2) the origins of the nation-state began in Europe after the peace of Westphalia in 1648; and (3) the other constructions of nationhood in the Thirds World are artificial imitations of the Europeans who had colonized them and taught them about the notion of nation. This Euro-centric perspective has made many to argue that Iranian nationalism is an artificial construction of recent times. A typical rendition of this argument is Joya Blondel Saad, The Image of Arabs in Modern Persian Literature (Lanham, MD; University Press of America, 1996). Saad writes that Iranian nationalism is the invention of the 18th and 19th century Europeans, that Iranians borrowed it from the Europeans, and that Iranian nationalists are anti-Arab racists.

    Anyone who is familiar with the pre-Islamic history of Iran, the resistance to the Arab-Islamic conquest of Iran, and the existence of cultural articulation of Iranian nationhood by many including Ferdowsi, the 10th century poet, knows that Saad’s view is clearly mistaken.

    Therefore, the sense of Iranian-ness is very old and is NOT an artificial imitation of Western nationalism in the post-Westphalian world. The sentiment and ethos of Iranian-ness goes back at least 2,500 years as reflected in the writings of Cyrus the Great and Dariush. It is also reflected in the resistance Iranians carried against foreign conquest of their motherland in the past 2,500 years.

    Was Iran a country with territorial integrity under Safavids? Yes. Were Safavids Persian? No. Safavids were Azerbaijanis. They did choose Shia Islam and with the force of the sword killed and forced hitherto Sunni Iranians to convert to Shia Islam. Was it necessary to kill and/or convert Iranians to Shia in order to create a “nation-state,” or was there a pluralistic and non-violent way?

    The fact of the matter is that our Azerbaijanis defended Iran and Iran's territorial integrity from Russians and Ottomans under the Safavids.

    Tribalism is a backward form of organization like monarchy, feudalism, and theocracy. We need to have modern forms of organizations like political parties based on policies and platforms. We need to modernize the old and ancient forms of administration and bureaucracies. The question is how to proceed.

    Azeris High-Tech Stealth Technology

    Azeri Turks never state their origin. Azeri Turks are usually from Azerbaijan or Tehran. But they always state their origin as Mashhad, Shomali, Shiraz and recently Khuzestan. Some well known examples are President Khatami who is an Azeri Turk from Tehran stating he is from Yazd. President Ahmadinejad who is from Zanjan in Azerbaijan stating he is from Semnan. Another Azeri Turk who was the head of police in Tehran and a President candidate stating he is a Kurd.Just to make it more credible some of them even learn the name of a few streets in case somebody asks for verification of their origin.

    This technology is based to name the Persian areas as their origin so that they are identified as Persians. They always state they are mixed with somebody like Kurds, Persians etc. They are never mixed with Baluchs!!!! Also sometimes instead of answering the question about their ethnicity, they claim instead that they have a Persian wife!!!!! This is as if they have adopted the ethnicity of their wife!!!! By Persian they mean the core Persians or the Aryan Persians which is a very small minority in Iran, probably not more than 15% of the population and which do not live anywhere close to these Azeri Turks.

    Also Azeri Turks accuse Persians to be turks and having a turkish blood. Where this turkish blood has come from is not explained. Usually Arab and Mongol invasions are quoted as the evidence for denying the existence of Persians. Also they often make up fairy tale stories about "intermarriage" and people are "completely mixed" in ancient times. All this tactics are used to deny ethnic identity of people in Iran. Azeri Turks have borrowed these techniques from Jews and it seems they have even recieved training in what to say and how to respond to questions.

    A New scheme is to state their ethnicity as "Iranian". By "Iranian" they mean they are a mix of turk, persian, arab and mongol.

    The second trend avoids any mention of Persia, Persians or the Persian language instead talks about Iran, Iranian and Irani language. The reason is the word Persian introduces a lot of complications which Azeris can not deal with and the whole scheme can easily crash. The current regime of Mr. Ahmadi is supporting this second trend.

    Persian is only a languae. No Persians exits in Iran?

    According to this article from, there are no Persians in Iran and Persian is only a language. Also According to vague "research" results by the same people in the University of Chicago, all Iranians are Azeri Turks. That is Persians have disappeared without a trace from Iran's history. Persian is just the language otherwise there is some kind of "Iranian race" which is a mix of turk, Persian, mongol and arab and there are not ethnic groups in Iran. Everybody in Iran is just "Iranian" who might speak different languages.

    Are there any Persians in Iran?
    He is confused between Iranian and Persian. A confusion initiated by the "West" and then encouraged by the invading Arabs and their doctrine. Iranian includes Persians, Azeris, Baluchis Lurs Kords etc. However not all those residing in Iran are necessarily Iranians. For example most people from Qum are remnants of Arab Shia' who fled the Caliphs.

    For his information Azeris, are one of the purest Iranians there is. What he calls Azeri Nationalism that President Truman and then Shah put an end to, was nothing but a Soviet (Communist) plot to absorb the Iranian Azeris into the part which the previous Russian dictators had truncated. Azeri Nationalism is Iranian Nationalism.

    Our best and brightest have been Azeris. Has he heard of Sataar Khaan and Baagher Khaan? Did they fight so heroically for Azeri Nationalism or the Iranian one? Does this young student, Salman, know that the most nationalistic Iranian individuals and movements have been from Azerbaijan, not in the name of Azeri people, as he so ignorantly refers to them, but in the name of the entire Iranian people? He should research and do the rest of his graduate work, not from the suspect sources of the "West", but the more authentic Iranian sources. But I suspect that his Farsi is so bad that he can only read English.

    The reason most Iranian insist on Persian is because that is the ancient language of the Iranian people. It was not from Fars that Farsi (Persian) was saved but the equally significant part of Iran, Greater Khorasan, that did it (heard of Ferdosi?) Most renowned Iranian (many of whom are Azeris) writers, philosophers, mathematicians, poets, astronomers and savants in general, not to forget medical scientists wrote their work in Farsi (Persian).

    During the Arab dominance, in their efforts to annihilate Iranian and Iranian thoughts, Farsi and Iranians were ridiculed and scholars were forced to write in Arabic. Attempts, then as now, were made to separate what our young scholar mistakenly call "ethnic" groups to divide the ever present Iranian Unity.

    Just because some speak in a different dialect, does not make them "ethnic". He is obviously under the influence of the concept of "ethnic" groups as exist and apply to many of us here in the United States (Even here we are all American with no ethnic inspirations - but proud of our ethnicity, as they are in all of Iran).

    Our young friend is so much under the Euro-Centrism world that he forgets that all that he says about Persians apply equally to say the French, or Britons. Until quite recently (Blair time) "Devolution" was not encouraged even in the "modern" Britain. English was promoted in favor of Gaelic Welsh or Irish. In Iran until recently also, we discouraged other languages ignorantly fearing it may encourage separation. Now that the idea is discarded as nonsense, different languages are permitted to the benefit of the Greater Iran.

    Tuesday, October 31, 2006

    Persian Empire and Iran today
    Comments by an African American:

    And being Iranian, as I assume you are since you claim the 2500 year old persian empire as your "heritage", you would do well to note that the empire started by cyrus bears no resemblance to modern iran. Cyrus was an advocate for human rights and freedom of religion for everyone. He was also a great friend to the jews. That kingdom was later conquered by the macedonians, the byzantines, the mongols, the turks and many more, but most importantly, by the arab empire which effectively setup the "heritage" you claim. You share nothing in common with the persians of 2500 years ago, so get over it.

    My point is the early culture of the first persian empire is not your heritage and has no bearing on iran today. That was 2500 years ago. Your heritage is arab because that was the last culture to conquer persia and it still holds sway today.

    I asked two questions in the last post. You ignored both so I'll ask again. What social or philosophical "heritage" from the early persian empire is espoused in modern iranian culture? It's certainly not cyrus' bill of human rights. And also, what makes persia's being conquered by arab invaders any different than egypt's being conquered by arab invaders?
    Oslonor Comments:
    There are three points that are interesting in these comments. Firstly the attempt to delink Persians from their past history. Secondly to force Persians to defend Azeri Turk Iranians who actually have no connection with past Persian history and include them into an imaginary "Iranian History". That is what Azeri Turks pursue in their objectives about an imaginary "Iranian History" in order to create legitimacy to their claims in controlling the state in Iran today.
    The third point is these comments are made by an African American. The question is why these African Americans have suddenly become so interested in Iran's history?!!!!
    The reason is the following: Clinton Administration in US in early 1990's started a process of introducing racial policies into the management of the US government. This racial agenda formulates policies based on ethnicity and race. These policies are followed by the Bush administration too. Persians as an ethnic group have been assigned to be managed by African Americans delinking European Americans from persians. This is the reason for the appearance of massive number of African Americans on Iranians Forums on the internet.